Tanstaafl ([info]ts_looney) wrote in [info]convert_me,

Native Americans pwn Burning Man hippies!

There was supposed to be a "private" Burner party last Saturday night at the Bordello in Oakland, complete with three hundred guests, twenty DJs spinning thumping techno and bass, dancers, a fashion show, micro-massages, raw food, an absinthe bar, and coconuts. Instead, the event ended in tears....

...The strange saga all began in early February when Visionary Village — a loose group of artists and other young people who enjoy the annual Burning Man arts festival in Nevada — began routine publicity for a Burning Man-style "private event" at the Bordello on E. 12 Street in Oakland. The online flyer circulated on
Tribe.net read: "GO NATIVE" in an Old West font set against a desert sun, and the dance party was advertised as a "fundraiser for the Native American Church." Native-rights activists got wind of it and publicized additional text from the VisionaryVillage.org web site indicating four "elemental rooms" would be themed: "Water: Island Natives (Maori); Air: Cliff Natives (Anasazi); Earth: Jungle Natives (Shipibo); Fire: Desert Natives (Pueblo)." Ravers were offered a discount off the $20 door fee "if you show up in Native costume," and the money would fund "neurofeedback research demonstrating causality between medicinal use [of peyote], improved brainwave patterns, and heightened mirror neuron activity in users." The 140-year-old Bordello property abuts Interstate 880 and an ancient Ohlone Indian site dated to the 12th century B.C., which was also promoted.
 
Complete Article HERE

I have a lot of mixed feelings about the Burning Man. While it does sound like a damn fun party, I find the whole thing kinda creepy. A bunch of rich, city dwelling, college kids going out to the desert to have a big party while claiming that it will "leave no trace" strikes my inner Boy Scout as absurd. The site is visible on Google Earth and it's kinda obvious that they have left a trace and the micro-ecosystem directly under the surface will never recover.

But now it seems they have gone and pissed off a large number of Indians (Before any one gets all pissy about using the term indians, let me state that my wife is cherokee and the trail of tears was sending Indians across the country, Wounded Knee was the last battle of the Indian Wars, all the bad things done to these people were done to "Indians" not "Native Americans and to change what you call them now is insulting to the ancestors of the Indians, who lived, suffered and died being called Indians. I know many people who claim Indian Heritage and all of them refuse to use the phrase "Native American" Also, in 1492 the subcontinent of India was known as Hindustan, not India) The way these neo-hippiuies mixed and matched Indian cultures with wanting to have fun on peyote while listening to techno in a bordello (that borders "Sacred" Indian land) and claiming it is in "Honor" of the "Native Americans" kinda makes my head hurt. The arrogance of humans never ceases to astound me.

The lame excuse the burners came up with saying that they meant dressing up like pop culture icons and cartoon characters when they said "Go Native" and "native costuming" strikes me as the absolute worst cop-out they could have come up with. Did they really expect the Indians to believe them?

But in the article, one of the Indians makes the statement:
"What we do is not an artistic expression. And you don't have artistic license to take little pieces here and there and do what you want with it." Makes me ask the question: Why Not?

Is there a legitimate reason for one culture to never use another cultures ideas, religion and symbology as "artistic expression"? Is having a big party in the desert or a Rave a legitimate excuse to "steal" a culture's spiritual ideas and iconography?

That being said, it seems from the 4 "Elements" the hippies chose, they have little understanding of Indian culture or symbology (The use of the Anastazi, who no white man has ever seen, specifically made me cringe) They couldn't be bothered to use only Indians from the area where the Burning Man  or Rave are located, yet some how didn't bother to use any of the "Five Civilized Tribes" that make up the soveriegn nations in Indian Territory (now Oklahoma) The use of the "Native American Church" as the group that would get the charity from the "fundraiser" just further solidifies my opinion that these hippies are raping the Indians in an attempt to "Help" them. Other than the fact that the members of the NAC can do peyote as part of their religious ceremonies, what do these kids know (or care) about any Indian religion?

Am I the only person that kinda smiled that a bunch of Indians made a bunch of hippies suffering from a case of "White Man's Guilt" cry?

(edited to change security from "members" to "Public")

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  • 58 comments

[info]brucenstein

April 3 2009, 21:09:35 UTC 3 years ago

Can they misrepresent themselves as Indians and as the organizers of an event whose proceeds will go to an Indian charity but ultimately do not? No - that's fraud.

Can they take whatever symbolism you have and rape it for their own purposes? Of course.

If your civilization's legitimacy hinges on what a bunch of tripped out suburbanite douchebags do in their spare time, your civilization has a lot more problems than a bunch of tripped out suburbanite douchebags.

[info]ts_looney

April 3 2009, 21:51:12 UTC 3 years ago

I don't think their civilization hinges on what the douchebags do, but they certainly insulted. Seeing how these hippie types always preach tolerance, multiculturalism and understanding, the irony of their actions is amazing.

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]mybodymycoffin

April 3 2009, 21:18:15 UTC 3 years ago

Better question: Why do white people feel like they're entitled to everything? Fucking hippies.

[info]essentialsaltes

April 3 2009, 21:26:25 UTC 3 years ago

The Native American Church is a real church.

[info]ts_looney

April 3 2009, 21:31:39 UTC 3 years ago

I am well aware that the NAC is a real church, but what do these hippies know about it other than they can do Peyote? I would be willing to bet they know nothing, and the only reason they choose that particular Indian religion is because trippin' is fun.

[info]pooperman

April 3 2009, 21:27:40 UTC 3 years ago

I think the answer to your question might lie in the hypothetical posed by Anquoe:

"If Indian people put together a fund-raiser advertised to benefit the Catholic Church where we did our version of a Catholic Church ceremony and there wasn't actually a fund-raiser -- you know what the reaction to it would be in the white community!?" he asked. "People would take legal actions against us, it would be crazy, it would be far beyond not having a party. As it is, these kids didn't get to have their party and they had to listen to Indian people being angry and that's about right for the injury they caused the Native community."


Think about that Catholic Church "fundraiser" for a minute and start to paint the details of what it would look like if it were as ridiculously-executed as these hippies did their party. Think of how much fun they could have had with crucifixes and the teachings of transubstantiation if they relied on their Wikipedia-limited-exposure to the RC church to inform their artistic intuitions on how to pull off those rooms.

Now try your best to think of this imagery from the perspective of someone who grew up in the RC church, perhaps someone who has dedicated their lives to the priesthood--someone who takes these images very seriously.

Now try your best to think of this in a hypothetical world where the Native Americans were the ones who invaded and conquered Rome and Europe, and the Roman Catholics were the ones in the reservations, and the Cherokee snot-nosed and privileged youth crowd was doing their "level best" to be like those noble Roman Catholics because they understood their spirit better than their own imperialistic culture, but they were really just trying to piss off their parents and strike out in their own way the way stupid kids do.

I don't know. It takes quite an imagination to work up this kind of empathy. Not impossible, but it's certainly not easy.

[info]ts_looney

April 3 2009, 21:40:09 UTC 3 years ago

I read a lot of Counter-factual history (Ok, it's cheap pulp, alternate history, Sci-fi) so I can kinda imagine it, but it still makes me cringe.

The section you quoted really made me giggle. The idea of a bunch of Indians dressing up in "native catholic costumes" and acting like they are catholic is actually pretty funny, but I have the feeling that if any Indians were to do that, it would be to poke the catholics in the eye and would be fully aware of what an insulting thing they where doing. It would be done in spite, not for a party.

[info]my_wits_end

April 3 2009, 23:31:52 UTC 3 years ago

I went to Burning Man in 2001, and it's not just a bunch of rich, city dwelling, college kids, although they probably do make up the largest demographic. But there were also rock stars (Perry Farrell), medical doctors, and people of different races there. Furthermore, most people were taking the 'leave no trace' thing very seriously, although I admit that it does seem unlikely to leave absolutely no trace.

Where did you get the idea that the micro-ecosystem under the earth will never recover? That seems ridiculous. The whole place is covered in alkaline dust. It seems that the presence of people would contribute to the micro-ecosystem.

Anyways, I agree that those neohippies were being stupid. If anything I'd think that neohippies and the Natives should be friends. But I do think it's awesome that they made them cry. A lot of those hippy type people are just ignorant hedonists who believe in pseudoscience. (I know some IRL.)

"Our organizers are dressing as time-traveling aliens, Nickelodeon cartoon characters, and fire-dragons because that is how they identify their native identity. " Oh, really? Hahaha.

[info]triphicus

April 3 2009, 23:39:47 UTC 3 years ago

Hehe, I never went to Burning Man, but I used to go to huge drum circles that had a similar thing going on somewhat often.

On that note, I was absolutely stunned last summer when my family and I unwittingly drove in the to butt-end of a Rainbow Gathering in the Wind Rivers (where we did our backpacking trip), by all of the trash and mess those supposed "hippies" left behind. It was really one of the saddest ironic moments of my life. It seems like the hippie movement has died and been replaced by a bunch of lazy, dirty, druggies who can't even go out into nature without leaving a disgusting mess behind. At least that was the sad impression I got from this experience :-(

[info]eracerhead

3 years ago

[info]ts_looney

April 4 2009, 00:55:56 UTC 3 years ago

Well, humans aren't really suppose to be there, so they cause harm. Fires not burned on a platform will leave a mark that will last for years. And just because humans have a hard time living someplace doesn't mean that we can't harm what does. Since a big chunk of the Black Rock Desert has been named a National Conservation Area, it reinforces the argument that the playa is more than just a lifeless expanse.

Deserts are very fragile ecology wise. A group of environmentalist have actually tried in court to stop burning man (http://www.greatbasinweb.com/bmappeal.html) but evidentually, the large amount of cash that BM pays to use the desert can grease a lot of palms.

I would try to provide more links, but trying to google anything with "burning man" in the query provides page after page of hippie crap.

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]jahbulon

3 years ago

[info]quakehead

3 years ago

[info]i_am_lane

3 years ago

[info]the_new_lemon

April 4 2009, 01:59:44 UTC 3 years ago

[info]fanha

April 4 2009, 00:48:23 UTC 3 years ago

"If you want to be spiritual — go be a Druid or something."

Wow, that's INCREDIBLY ironic.

Of course, from my experience, druids will take offense whether you make fun of them or not.

Overall, good for them.

[info]ts_looney

April 4 2009, 01:12:12 UTC 3 years ago

Yeah, that struck me as a WTF? Don't insult us, go insult some one else.

My wife pointed out that it was making a stereotype judgment that all white folks are descended from druids, which is not really so.

[info]meus_ovatio

April 4 2009, 01:05:34 UTC 3 years ago

I don't understand any of this.

Ban hippies.
Ban Native Americans.
Ban deserts.

[info]meus_ovatio

April 4 2009, 01:07:30 UTC 3 years ago

Oh, and most definitely ban the shit out of micro-ecosystems. What the fuck is that shit

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]jonathankorman

April 4 2009, 02:00:56 UTC 3 years ago

I've been hanging around with burners for the last fifteen years, have attended Burning Man four times, and the Visionary Village event as described sounds like exactly the kind of asinine nonsense that inspires me to keep burner culture at arm's length. That said, I cannot resist protesting some things about your characterization of burning man.

rich, city dwelling, college kids

That's not a realistic description of the burner population, which is actually very diverse. Yeah, there are a lot of people in their early- to mid-20s, but the scheduling of the event means that there are actually precious few college students. There are a lot of bourgeois professionals in their 30s, 40s, and beyond. There are also a lot of starving artists and true bohemians scraping by in crummy service industry gigs. I believe that the majority of burners are indeed urbanites and suburbanites, but I've also met a heck of a lot of them who are living the eccentrics-in-the-middle-of-nowhere life. And it's worth noting the whole enterprise is held together by a huge cadre of dedicated middle aged people who keep the whole thing running.

The important way in which burners aren't diverse—very relevant to your point—is that burners are overwhelmingly White people.

hippies

Seriously?

One beloved feature of Burning Man is a full-scale replica of the Thunderdome from Mad Max III, in which people fight bungee-cord duels just like in the movie. (Okay, they use padded weapons, but that doesn't stop some Thunderdome duelists from beating the shit out of each other.) This establishment is run by &lquo;Deathguild,” a gang of people who ride around the desert with dune buggies and motorcycles that spit great gouts of flaming propane, dressed like extras from Mad Max. They fund this project by running a successful goth/industrial dance club. Call Deathguild various kinds of goofy if you wish, but “hippies” they certainly are not. I have never met a burner I would call a “hippie.”

The site is visible on Google Earth and it's kinda obvious that they have left a trace and the micro-ecosystem directly under the surface will never recover.

Burning Man does undoubtedly disrupt the ecosystem of the Black Rock Desert. But I gotta say that there are few places on Earth with less ecosystem for human beings to disrupt. And I read about a study a while back which demonstrated that by any measure you can think of, the average burner has a smaller ecological footprint for each day on the playa than she has the rest of the year. Most notably, that includes using petroleum even after you account for the long drive to the desert.

“Leave no trace” is an unattainable perfect ideal, obviously, but burners take it very seriously, and the organizers take elaborate measures to get as close as humanly possible. There's a large crew that stays after the event for weeks cleaning up. There's a fence around the city perimeter designed to catch any trash picked up by the wind. Some burners are shmucks, of course, but most are very conscientious about packing out everything they bring in, and walking along at the event I've commonly seen people chase after an errant bit of trash that wasn't even theirs.

And though the event does scrape up the desert surface, the wet season of winter returns the playa to its original flat hardpan condition when it dries in the spring.

[info]ts_looney

April 4 2009, 02:50:25 UTC 3 years ago

Perhaps when I said "hippies" I should have said "spoiled, self indulgent, suburban, caucasians with a bad case of unwarranted self importance". I did not mean joan biez listening, beads in their hair, flower children. but philosophically, what's the difference between burners and hippies when you strip away the superficial trappings of clothing style and musical taste? They are drop outs of society that dislike authority.

And those middle aged guys in charge - hippies, from back in the day. btw, at 350$ a person, BM generates 10,500,000 for the folks in charge.

The fence had more to do with keeping people coming through the one entrance to collect cash than it does with catching trash.

And though the event does scrape up the desert surface, the wet season of winter returns the playa to its original flat hardpan condition when it dries in the spring.

Wrong. it doesn't get wet enough there to remove any evidence humans have been there.I read an article 3 years ago that went into great detail about how that does not happen, and how merely walking on the playa kills the microorganisms that live under it. I would link to it, but there's so much crap about burning man on the net, it left me saying "the google, it does nothing"

[info]essentialsaltes

April 4 2009, 03:29:42 UTC 3 years ago

btw, at 350$ a person, BM generates 10,500,000 for the folks in charge.

Crap, Woodstock was fucking free, though primarily by lack of foresight rather than intent.

Hippies were clearly pikers when it came to making money.

Anecdotal data: of the two repeat Burners I know, there is one white, one brown (as in Indian (No, not Injun, Indian (well, okay, Pakistani))).

Again I apologize for my earlier irrelevancy. I plead work combined with a need to actually work. Now that I'm no longer getting paid to spout bullshit, I'll spout more bullshit. No, it would just be bullshit. I'll quit while I'm behind. What's that? Why yes, I have had too much to drink. It's Friday.

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]hollowman

3 years ago

[info]ts_looney

3 years ago

[info]fizzyland

3 years ago

[info]jahbulon

3 years ago

[info]wavemage

April 5 2009, 19:23:59 UTC 3 years ago

burning man hippies?

I am offended that you would call Burners (burning man people) like myself "Hippies". Anyone who took 2 minutes to study it would know the difference between stupid dirty hippies and sophisticated counter-culture Burners.

That being said: notice I don't really make a big deal about this, alert the news, protest, blah blah blah. People mislabelling me, stealing my ideas, disrespecting my beliefs, is part of life. I will get in their face about it if they get in MY face about it, or if they threaten harm to me or my family/friends, but otherwise I live and let die.

So why don't the Indians/Native Americans take the same attitude?

I have no desire to tip-toe around someone's culture, walk on eggshells around them, etc etc. I am going to offend people just by being here, and doing what I love. So be it.

I didn't try to attend this event, but I regularly use 'tribal fusion' clothing, wear feathes, and even write music that takes some inspiration from Native American beliefs (Raven and Coyote trickster). I have learned from them about these things, and fused them with my own beliefs, and beliefs from other cultures. A melting pot.

They can be offended by this, but that's their problem. I am not gonna stop, and I feel that I am helping evolve humanity by doing so.

[info]ts_looney

April 5 2009, 19:52:30 UTC 3 years ago

Re: burning man hippies?

I am offended that you would call Burners (burning man people) like myself "Hippies". Anyone who took 2 minutes to study it would know the difference between stupid dirty hippies and sophisticated counter-culture Burners.


Please, enlighten me as to the difference.

and: LMAO at "Raven and Coyote trickster" Specifically, what tribe of Indians does that come from?

[info]wavemage

3 years ago

[info]cheruborg

April 5 2009, 19:30:59 UTC 3 years ago

Google Earth

> The site is visible on Google Earth and it's kinda obvious that they have left a trace
> and the micro-ecosystem directly under the surface will never recover

The site is visible on Google Earth because they took an aerial photo during the event. If you took a picture now it would probably not show up, perhaps just a faint trace of the roads. The cleanup crew does an insanely good job.

There basically is no ecosystem anyway, nothing lives out there but a few bugs. It's some sort of ecosystem, but not a very interesting one.

[info]ts_looney

April 5 2009, 19:46:29 UTC 3 years ago

Re: Google Earth

Are you actually implying that only interesting ecosystems deserve to exist unmolested? Your neighborhood may seem kinda uninteresting to some people, can they come trash it?

[info]cheruborg

3 years ago

[info]cheruborg

3 years ago

[info]tosk

April 6 2009, 16:55:42 UTC 3 years ago

I call bullshit.

The burners should have invited the Natives to come play with them. The asanine "respect each others culture" mantra that gets beat in this politically correct, soon to be completely sterilized society needs to stop.

YES people can dress up like Indians, talk about Wampum and Firewater if they like.

The can also dress in blackface and jabber about watermellon and Mammy.

If that pisses people off, well they obviously have a pretty good life. Since many people who might be offended by these things have larger concerns like jobs, food, medical care etc.

Fuck people that live in the past.

[info]meus_ovatio

April 6 2009, 17:13:32 UTC 3 years ago

Yeah. Poor black people don't care about racism, since they're so worried about things like jobs and food and health care.

[info]tosk

3 years ago

[info]telarus

3 years ago

[info]therealnappyg

April 25 2009, 11:43:51 UTC 3 years ago

White Entitlement Masquerading As 'Live&Let Live' Attitude..

TS_Looney makes many valid points that are clearly pissing off all the poor "mislabeled" Burners!! 1st off,I'm Black American...PC people would say "African-American". So my perspective is NOT the same as some vicarious-living succubus who's siphoning off other people's culture's due to a lack of my own. To me,this is what Hippies have in common with Burners. Despite style/music/age difference,both these groups of people recognize the spiritual emptiness of their own ancestors' culture & history. So they try to create their own hodge-podge version of "Culture" that mashes together any bits & pieces that they find suitable in the moment. And whoever they offend or disturb can just go to Hell! Ironically,that very lack of empathy for those around them is EXACTLY analagous to the Hippies'/Burners' ancestors' oblivious & destructive self-absorption. So the fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree. The so-called "Majority"(an actual minority in the world) of White people can never truly see the perspective of the oppressed(& their descendants) who live in this White Man's society. Because you,as White people,will never truly feel the full weight of the damage you inflict. It's your world,how could you? I'm not mad at you. I just laugh at your attempts to rationalize your craziness! It's funny,in a twisted kinda way. I have LOTS of Burner friends,& I still respect their choices...but trying to convince me of the true "Tribal" nature of Burning Man just makes me laugh. It's a big party in the Desert,people! Humans have common foundations,across all racial/cultural boundaries,I understand...but i don't need to take LSD & get naked in the desert to realize this. Been there,done that. The Indians(aka Native Americans) who were upset about the misappropriation of their culture for this faux-ritualistic party (that got canceled) had every right to be pissed off. If you're gonna steal people's culture,at least do your proper research!! :-) Make it a real tribute,not just a farce on drugs.
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